Politics, technology, and society. And the seasonal incursion of pro cycling.

The Proper Way To Hang a Confederate Flag

Irony abounds:

[Robert] Hurst walked into the Mary Brogan Museum of Art and Science this past week and saw an exhibit by [artist John] Sims, including a Confederate flag hung from a noose on a 13-foot gallows in a display titled “The Proper Way to Hang a Confederate Flag.”

Hurst asked the museum to remove the display, along with 13 other pieces by Sims.

[ . . . ]

Hurst, commander of the local Sons of Confederate Veterans chapter, said Friday he has lost respect for the museum, calling the display of Sims’ work “offensive, objectionable and tasteless.”

Perfect, really. Just perfect.

Update: Welcome, all. I go out for a run and come back to an avalanche. Click here for the main page.

Further update: a picture of what’s causing all the uproar. Also, if anyone wants to see what just kind of ugly it is attacking this art, check out the comments. Really quite lovely.


Voter ID Requirements: Some Data


Race Report: St. Patrick’s Day 8K


  1. CJ


    hang a nigger by a rope ,
    its racist.
    hang a flag, we can discuss it


  2. Richard Bentley

    When will an educated community recognize that even though the abomination of slavery was one cause of the Civil War, the major cause was States Rights and a response to invasion of homelans with the purpose of destroying a peaceful community most of which agreed that Slavery ws wrong. The majority of Southerner would not and could not own another person. By themselves they were in the process of abolishing. It was not the solution to chep labor problems it has been represented to be by “damn yankees” who cared then, as many do now, more about getting elected than they do the welfare of their country.Given timethe lack of humanity of slave ownership and the economics would have driven other staes to join Texas in the abolish ment of the trade within its borders. Check the facts. In Texas it wa not lafulto buy or sell a human. It was so stated in the original State Constitution at the Time the Treaty of Annexation was aproved. The only slaves in Texas were brought in by others. No slave hs ever been born in either the Republic or the State. It is also a fact that many of the Slave population of the old and traditional South after Appomatox stayed with their families, the people who had owned them employed them, and had taken responsibility for their health and well being by provideing hoes and succor. It was not all like hollywood has represented it. The reords of the times show that Tara of Gone With the Wind was more like the truth. Most of the chain gang approach was associated with landmanagement ant absentee ownership by Norther Financial Interests who ran their plantation like they did the Coal mines, their shoe factories of Up State New York,their weaving and other examples of alabor abuse. The truth of the matter is they did not like Lincoln and wanted him out of office. Sounds like a parallel to a condition the country sufferes from today. There is nothing that is shameful about the Confederate Flag or the the reason southerners went to war to protect their homeland. What is most shameful about the history is that the medea failed to report anything about slavery except the sensationalism exploited by the Democratic Party of the North as they attempted to recover political control by the Northeast. Slavery was and still is an abomination. It was not and is not acceptable that one person owns another. But, equality under law has always been upheld by my family and all the southerners I know. If let alone the South would have abolished slavery on economic if no other grounds.My family fought on both sides of the states’s rights issue. Both proudly sacrificed for liberty. One side for central control. The other side for local control. Most families of the Southern Confederacy were not and nevr would be Slave Owners. But they were and are Patriots who continue to support the Constitutions, Federal and and State. If anyone needs to be corrected it is the dolts that have not taken the trouble to read more than the medea and most elected politicians of the time. The Confederate Flag should be given respect and not be held in disdain and dishonored by ignorant people who can not take the time to see that it stands for much much more than slavery which was a propaganda issue of the reportiorial North.

  3. Lynn

    Conner, don’t give ‘MB’ more credit than he/she/it is due. MB is not some high-minded liberal, but rather, types one-handed, getting kicks here, relying, no doubt, on some questionable partner of one sex or the other or species, to earn the living …enabling MB to make history here. What (a) character. ;} There… that just about covers it. Meow.

  4. vern

    I red a lot here about respect and freedom. That flag has nothing to do with either of those, quite the opposite.

  5. Bob

    Heh, there is more than one way to skin a rat, boycot the supporters of the museum. Turn about is fair play. The supporters are listed on the museum’s web site. Find out who they are and e-mail the hell out of them.

  6. Lou

    “Racist, Offensive”
    In one word, “WAAAH” Grow up people, it a flag. Nothing more, nothing less!

  7. John

    Take away all the causes that support or oppose the Confederate and what you end up with is a symbol of treason. The victor always has his way with history. The Conferacy was a treasonous cause and out of a desire to unite the Union after the civil war, Union powers allowed southern states to maintain their affiliation. But when you boil it down, the Confederate States were traitors to the Union it swore to uphold and the sons and the daughters of those states are sons and daughters of traitors and should not have pride for that affiliation. Now before all those anti-south accusations start running rampant, let me continue. I also oppose Black History Month as much as I oppose reverntly dispaying the Confederate flag.

    As Americans, we should put everything into a life perspective. A black American should be no more proud of his/her heritage than the contribuions he or she was made to our society themselves. What good is it if your great great great grandfather was a Nobel Prize winner and you yourself have never strived for greatness. Likewise white Americans descendent from Confederate members should show no pride for the Confederate flag unless they hold the same beliefs of that treasonous act because that what it stood for.

    To black people, white people of today should stop being blamed for slavery and the lynchings of the past. But the white people of today also have the responsibility to distance themselves from those people and symbols of that past.

    The only difference between the Confederate flag hanging from that noose and a Nazi flag hanging from a noose, is the number of people willing to complain and maintain an open allegence to it.

    Richard B.,

    If something is wrong, then fix it now. Can anyone with certainty say that without the Civil War, slavery would have been abolished everywhere in the United States by now. Blacks (chattle) weren’t even considered to be human, let alone a person. And for you to downplay the economic advantages to slavery in the south is negligent. Its your type of educating that perpetuates the problem. If you are proud of the flag, then you are proud of everything it stood for, not just the noble causes but everything. The Unions attempt to abolish slavery nationwide is no different than the nations attempt at prohibition. John Reb was as a criminal as Al Capone.

    Lets be proud that we as Americans righted a wrong and continue strive for a mor perfect Union.

  8. Bob

    Very poor argument John. It is more than that. The exhibit is a pure unadulterated form of racism. It is a careless, insensitive provocation on the part of the, so called, artist. It was wrong and Sims exposed himself as the kind of, so called, man he really is. Where I live black history month tends to last from the middle of January until the middle of March and is, all of a sudden, forgotten about when March Madness Basketball tournaments begin. Wonder why? Was it not all that important in the beginning anyways? Why has Sims not stepped forward and posted his e-mail address for all to see.

  9. John Lee Jones

    I had a great grandfather fighting on both sides of the Civil War. Both of them fought for what they belived in; their family, their states, their country, their neighbors. Slavery is an obvious evil, there can be no discussion of it.

    That a museum would display a flag, that so many honerable men fought and died for, in such a disrespectful way is horrid. The flag of the United Staes of America flew over legal slavery for “four score and seven years” and slavery was written into the U.S. Constitution. Let us also string up the Stars and Stripes then; that flag flew over slavery many more years than the Confederate one.

    I urge everyone to go the website of The Mary Brogan Museum of Art and Science ( and let them know how you feel. Also, click on the list of corporate sponsors and let THEM know how you feel. Boycotts can be very effective these days.

    The Mary Brogan Museum of Art and Science website staes that is “in association with the Smithsonian Institution”. The following is the “Vision of the Smithsonian Institution as described by it’s current Secretary, Lawrence M. Small. The Smithsonian is committed to enlarging our shared understanding of the mosaic that is our national identity by providing authoritative experiences that connect us to our history and our heritage as Americans and to promoting innovation, research and discovery in science.

    I don’t think the lynching of a Confederate Flag falls under the vision of the Smithsonian and should not be part of a museum display.

  10. CG

    Listen, any respect for the Confederacy was decided some 140 years ago. Jefferson Davis was indicted and imprisoned for treason. I’d do what any self-respecting Union soldier would have done coming upon that flag: tear it down, stomp on it, and or burn it. On behalf of the dead Union soldiers everywhere, you can all shove the confederate flag up your ass.

    Your ancestors sucked. If you want to dig them up, and they still want to revere the rebel cause, we can shoot them again.

  11. Never heard of your blog, smart way to get you noticed…

    Now as for those that think this is art, you can only imagine that they admire a cross immersed in urine as art also.

    New flash the biggest race riots were in the North. Ever seen the movie ‘Gangs of New York’, very accurate for lynching… they didn’t stop after the draft riots of 1864.

  12. Michael:
    Watch your damn mouth before somebody puts a fist in it.

    The Confederate flag is part of our history. Like I’ve said many times before, if you insist on excluding from American history everything that shows prejudice… well, may I say that your going to be left with a very thin text book. Northen states like New York had plenty of their own lynchings, as well. Ever heard of the New York Draft Riots? Racism wasn’t just alive in the South. And yet somehow, a war that wasn’t at all about racism has become the symbol for racism in this country that has created an unfair Southern stereo-type. Yes, there is racism in the South. But there’s also racism in the North.

    No doubt the flags degredation from a symbol of states’ rights to a symbol of hatred is in no small part do to wicked organizations like the KKK and the CCC using the Confederate Flag to promote their twisted and sick white supremacy agenda. But remember, the flag of the confederacy should only represent two things: A Southern Identitiy that is seperate from the United States as a whole, and a symbol for those who don’t strongly support the supremacy of the Federal Government over the State Government.

  13. MB

    This is just an appalling show of ignorance and hate here, but I suppose it can serve as an illustration.


    Look, folks, there’s no rehabbing the Confederate flag. Its Heritage IS Hate.

  14. NotScarlettO'Hara

    If art is intended to encourage debate and evoke emotion, this seems to have been successful. No matter what the history of the Confederate Battle Flag (that’s open to lots of debate), as a symbol it got HIJACKED long ago by wacko white supremacists. Anyone who thinks otherwise is in very serious denial. The Sons of Confederate Veterans and others who allege they want to celebrate their history, not hate (if one accepts the very shaky premise that the two things can be separated) NEED TO GET A NEW SYMBOL. The swastika meant something else before it was used by the Nazis, but no one would seriously suggest it could ever be divorced from those who used it to symbolize the terror of pure human evil.

    Aren’t there any artistic types in the SCV who could design something else? The battle flag SCARES people. Nothing can be done to change that.

  15. “Its Heritage IS Hate.”

    I will go to the grave refusing to believe that.

  16. I did some reasearch on the confederate flag and the following is a blog i made about it.
    my e-mail is if you would like more info on the flag i do have more..

    “For those who like to say that the Confederate Flag is the flag of the KKK, in the 1920’s the Klan marched on D.C. and laid out a huge American flag and declared “The American Flag is the Flag of the Ku Klux Klan.” Should we declare the American Flag a banner of Oppression and racism? ” (found on )

    So many people have a twisted concept of what the confederate flag means. so here is some information the the TRUE meaning of the flag and what it does mean. and the history of the flag. to show you that this flag is designed for a strong and GOD lead U.S.A. and has nothing to do with be rasist or racism….

    The following is found on

    :William Miles, its designer, indicated its underlying symbolism in an 1861 letter:
    “The flag should be a token of humble acknowledgment of God and be a public testimony to the world that our trust is in the Lord our God.”….

    :It stood for limited government and federalism (states’ rights) against the dangers of concentrated and centralized government power.

    :It stood for the principles of the constitutional federal republic of 1789

    :It stood for the rights gained and blood sacrifices their forefathers had made in the Revolutionary War.

    :Radical and lawless groups often display the United States flag, but this does not change its true meaning to fair-minded people. Nor should fair-minded people rightly associate the Confederate battle flag with evil because the very same groups expropriate and display it.

    :Newspapers and groups such as the NAACP, SCLC and the Southern Poverty Law Center have no right to define the meaning of Confederate flags any more than the French have the right to define the meaning of the Italian flag or any flag but their own. Redefining and slandering someone else’s heritage and symbols are incredibly arrogant and stirs up needless strife. Honorable people pursuing a just and civil society do not seek to dishonor and marginalize the heritage and symbols of others.

    :The Confederate battle flag ought to be the honored heritage of every Southerner and every American. No cowardice or indifference should allow it to be trampled under the heel of busybodies and political correctness police.

    On it states:

    :The Confederate Flag stands for a lot of things, but the one thing it Doesn’t stand for is racism. The flag has nothing to do with racism and Never did. The flag stands for southern heritage, and that alone. What We mean by that is, it stands for the southern states that wanted to become Their own nation. It stands for the confederate soldiers who lost there Lives in the Civil War. It by all means does not stand for racism, which Many think it does. One of the main reasons that everyone thinks it stands For racism is because of the Ku Klux Klan (KKK), and that while in elementary School the teachers teach the children that the southern states were the Bad guys as to say. Just because the KKK gives the flag a bad name, it Doesn’t mean that it is bad or stands for racism. It merely stands for Southern heritage and that alone.

    On it states:

    I was born and raised in the South, 1960. The Confederate Battle Flag has ALWAYS been to me, a Banner of the South, it represents all of those things that are unique to us in the South and it encompasses ALL People of ALL Races, Religions, Ethnic and Nationality. It is the banner of the unique things in our everyday life – food, architecture, music, heritage celebrations and contributions which together blend to create a unique experience and being, The Southerner. It is because of this blend of African, French, German, Irish, Spanish, American Indian, etcetera that there are SOUTHERN contributions worldwide such as “Creole” and “Cajun” foods. Grits, red beans and rice, french bread and especially seafood are things that are so Southern in flavor (pun intended) that eating these in the South is a totally different experience than having these in the North. The Confederate Battle Flag has long been the chosen symbol of “anti-establishment” and rebelliousness. It has long been the chosen symbol of bikers, teenagers, truckers, even international rebel forces have used this as their flag in their anti-government fights in their countries, including in the African Congo. Until it became the big platform issue of the NAACP, it was totally common to see the Confederate battle Flag license tag or decal on the vehicles of Southern African-Americans. It was a PROUD SYMBOL of OUR unique contributions as many varying individuals and groups of people which create a wonderful blend like a Southern Coffee.
    It is unfortunate that the flag has been used as a political ploy by those who would do so much more to help the Black Community and ALL people if instead of chosing to demonize the Confederate battle Flag, these “leaders” had instead chosen the issues that we all SHARE in concern of: education for our children and ourselves, jobs and job training, crime and how to stop it’s continuing spread, and most of all, the common fact that we are ALL alike in our shared concerns and plight to stand shoulder to shoulder against the attacks of terrorists and those who want to disband the Constitution and Bill of Rights that represents and protects ALL of us, except where POLITICIANS add in exclusions.
    Perhaps if we had instead UNITED under this banner and stood together in the fight for righteous address of all of these issues then perhaps we would see less of the hatred and anger that oozes up daily through the cracks of society.
    Perhaps if we showed EQUAL respect and privilege to ALL people regardless of what we THINK a symbol MIGHT mean to them, we just might find out that symbol is in fact one that they hold to be INCLUSIVE of us ALL.
    No SINGLE group has rights to the American Flag NOR the Confederate Battle Flag, a flag which was solely designed to identify the Southern troops from the Northern troops on the battle field due to the likeness of the two National Flags flown by both sides. Other that as an identifier to prevent Southerner soldiers from shooting their own soldiers on the battlefield, the Confederate Battle Flag was designed as nothing more. THAT hardly makes IT the symbol of racism and oppression, instead it makes it A BANNER of FORTITUDE even in the face of greater odds. A REBEL banner. And rebels come in every variation of human being.

  17. MB

    Then you’ll go to your grave on a lie, like so many others who take the easy path. Your choice. But don’t expect to be able to cry about how others won’t respect that lie.

  18. Bob

    The Confederate battle flag is a symbol of one thing to one group and another thing to another group and NEVER will there EVER be any agreement on it. The fact that this fool Sims chose deliberately to attack one side without careful thought just shows his racism (or reverse racism). Now you can all say southerners are racist if you want but would you agree that Sims is a racist? If you are so gulible as to believe that a black man cannot be a racist, then I have a prime piece of ocean front beach property to sell you in Arizona. The civil rights days are gone and white southerners DO NOT want to relive them. But it seems the blacks southerners DO want to live in the past and not let it go. That is why this discussion is taking place in the first place. If you want to claim the confederate flag is evil… then you would also have to claim the American flag is gutless and weak. Just look at the cut-n-run policy of a weak and scared congress concerning Iraq. Just look at the cut-n-run policy of a 1970s congress during the Viet Nam era. Americans have NO STOMACH for a prolonged war and NO STOMACH to do what is necessary to assure that some arab is not going to blow you up on a street corner. Instead of oppressing the enemy, Americans choose to oppress themselves with surveileance, phone taps, ect… increased security at airports. People that does nothing to the enemy but hinders the hell out of OUR daily lives. The rest of the world now believes we are gutless as a nation of people because we will not pull together and take the fight to the enemy. We instead choose to keep the civil right fight alive amongst ourselves. I would be happy to NEVER hear the “civil rights” thing ever again in my whole life in as much as I don’t particularly care if I never see another Confederate flag again. What I do care about though is Americans being seen as GUTLESS COWARDS by the rest of the world and loosing the respect our fathers and grandfathers fought and died to earn on the beaches of Europe and the Pacific.

  19. NotScarlettO'Hara

    Yes, I’ve heard the argument before that the KKK allegedly claims the U.S. Flag as its symbol. I doubt they’ve had an official vote on the matter.. But that doesn’t change the fact that if one attends any white supremacy rally or parade in this country the Confederate Flag is the most prominent symbol of hatred and racism there. Just do an internet search to find pictures of these hatefests. Here’s one link:

    Those who allege they are celebrating heritage, not hate, would have more credibility if they’d just LET IT GO. That symbol scares people. It upsets people. It means something evil to people. And I’m white. I cannot imagine what it feels like to a black person when they encounter a confederate flag on display. Why engage in such idolatry about it? If these groups that promote the flag are primarily made up of Christians, don’t they know that according to Christian tenants any type of idolatry should be rejected?

  20. Bob Dobbs

    penelope wrote”

    “Whomever it was on this blog stating there was no Afican flag, check again. There are a plethora of African flags. Google it.”

    Dear Penelope,

    There is no ‘African’ flag. Africa is a continent, not a country. Individual countries in Africa do most certainly have their own flags.

    You might also be interested to know that there are states in North and South America which are not members of the ‘United States of America’.

  21. MonkeyHawk

    Sort of a dawn-of-civilization happy face, it was all the rage 6,000 years ago. Ancient Turks loved it. Tibetans wove it into their baskets and blankets. Navajos painted it in the sand and on their pottery. Norsemen engraved on those funny helmets they wore, the ones with the Hagar the Horrible horns. It’s seen on the walls of prehistoric caves as a stylized representation of the bountiful sun. Sanskrit gave it a name, a combination of “su,” or good, and “asti,” to be; in other words, it means “well-being.”

    Then Adolph Hitler came along, adopted the hooked cross (Hakencreuz) as a symbol of Arian purity or a cog in the machine that was to be a thousand year Reich, whatever, the point is: Hitler came along and ruined the swastika for all of us. Wear it now, or tattoo it on your forehead as Charlie Manson did, and most people will figure out you�re pretty much of a kook. No “bountiful sun.” No “well-being.” Kook, pure and simple. Not to mention: loser.

    Which brings me to the Confederate flag.

    A lot of people served with honorable intentions under that flag, including some of my ancestors. There was a story rolling around family reunions when I was a kid about a couple of great-great-uncles who discovered they fought against, and under, Old Glory and the Confederate battle flag against each other.

    There’s no indication at all in my genealogy that anyone in my family tree benefited directly from the “peculiar institution” of slavery. Nevertheless, when the time came to fight for farm and family, some of them took up arms, some of them bravely. Some of them under the stars and bars of the Confederate battle flag.

    Then along came people like Edgar Ray Killen and ruined it for all. He ruined it for Robert E. Lee, who turned his back against the United States of America to fight for the Old Dominion of his native Virginia. Killen and his Ku Klux Klan adopted and distorted the stars and bars into a symbol of racist hatred.

    The Confederate flag, if it ever did, no longer represents anything noble or quaint or honorable. Fly it, display it, wear it, salute it, worship it all you want — it’s your 1st Amendment right — but it brands you as a bigot. Justify, rationalize, cite history or tradition if you can, but hard as you try, the racists have co-opted that symbol for you and ruined it. And its representation brands you as a kook, simple, and a loser.

  22. Bob

    What gives black people the God given right to define what a symbol is for an entire nation? The Confederate Flag was used long before it became a, so called, symbol of slavery. The history is that Linclon was in dire straights to get recruits for an unpopular war and since most Northerners were against the consept of slavery, he jumped on that band’s wagon and used it as a reason for war. Linclon, himself, did not particularly care about the slaves in the south. He just needed to find something that would raise enough ire to increase troop numbers because, at the time, he was losing the war. He kept firing good Generals because they kept losing is an example. Linclon didn’t care about the slaves. Most Northerners did not want to leave their homes and families just because Southerners wanted their independence from a totalitarian government. The issue of slavery was not the primary issue nor the first issue of the war.

    Only after the NAACP and other organizations like the Black Panthers and the Black Muslims said it was a flag of racial hate, one hundred years later, did it ever become that. Why wait a hundred years to say so? No, it was used devisively by the civil rights organizations who labled it as what they claim it is now. Now, did you know that the NAACP is as bad a racial organization as the Klan? Here is what they do: (this is not stated publically because they don’t want whitey, cracker, or honkey to know) They finance the purchasing of homes in predominantly white neighborhoods to dilute the white voting strength, they encourage black students to persure degrees in law, social services in order to gain and monopolize public office and services and deny them to whitey or cracker. The medicaid / welfare for the needy is a prime example, in my state, if you are white and in need, you cannot qualify for the same programs that blacks easily get. Not because you are white but for some other reason is always listed and they know that if a whitey or cracker tries to persue it in court, most times he is too poor for a lawyer or a public law services takes too long and whitey will eventually give up. No black people are not satisfied with freedom, voting rights or affirmative action they want more and more until they control every government service, office ect… its all about power to deny whites to them.

  23. MB

    Texas asked me to post this:

    A Declaration of the Causes which Impel the State of Texas to Secede from the Federal Union.

    Texas abandoned her separate national existence and consented to become one of the Confederated Union to promote her welfare, insure domestic tranquility and secure more substantially the blessings of peace and liberty to her people.

    [ . . . ]

    She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery– the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits– a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time.

    [ . . . ]

    These and other wrongs we have patiently borne in the vain hope that a returning sense of justice and humanity would induce a different course of administration.

    When we advert to the course of individual non-slave-holding States, and that a majority of their citizens, our grievances assume far greater magnitude.

    The States of Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massachusetts, New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Wisconsin, Michigan and Iowa, by solemn legislative enactments, have deliberately, directly or indirectly violated the 3rd clause of the 2nd section of the 4th article [the fugitive slave clause] of the federal constitution, and laws passed in pursuance thereof; thereby annulling a material provision of the compact, designed by its framers to perpetuate the amity between the members of the confederacy and to secure the rights of the slave-holding States in their domestic institutions– a provision founded in justice and wisdom, and without the enforcement of which the compact fails to accomplish the object of its creation. Some of those States have imposed high fines and degrading penalties upon any of their citizens or officers who may carry out in good faith that provision of the compact, or the federal laws enacted in accordance therewith.

    In all the non-slave-holding States, in violation of that good faith and comity which should exist between entirely distinct nations, the people have formed themselves into a great sectional party, now strong enough in numbers to control the affairs of each of those States, based upon an unnatural feeling of hostility to these Southern States and their beneficent and patriarchal system of African slavery, proclaiming the debasing doctrine of equality of all men, irrespective of race or color– a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of Divine Law. They demand the abolition of negro slavery throughout the confederacy, the recognition of political equality between the white and negro races, and avow their determination to press on their crusade against us, so long as a negro slave remains in these States.

    For years past this abolition organization has been actively sowing the seeds of discord through the Union, and has rendered the federal congress the arena for spreading firebrands and hatred between the slave-holding and non-slave-holding States.

    By consolidating their strength, they have placed the slave-holding States in a hopeless minority in the federal congress, and rendered representation of no avail in protecting Southern rights against their exactions and encroachments.

    They have proclaimed, and at the ballot box sustained, the revolutionary doctrine that there is a ‘higher law’ than the constitution and laws of our Federal Union, and virtually that they will disregard their oaths and trample upon our rights.

    They have for years past encouraged and sustained lawless organizations to steal our slaves and prevent their recapture, and have repeatedly murdered Southern citizens while lawfully seeking their rendition.

    [ . . . ]

    And, finally, by the combined sectional vote of the seventeen non-slave-holding States, they have elected as president and vice-president of the whole confederacy two men whose chief claims to such high positions are their approval of these long continued wrongs, and their pledges to continue them to the final consummation of these schemes for the ruin of the slave-holding States.

    In view of these and many other facts, it is meet that our own views should be distinctly proclaimed.

    We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable.

    That in this free government all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations; while the destruction of the existing relations between the two races, as advocated by our sectional enemies, would bring inevitable calamities upon both and desolation upon the fifteen slave-holding states.

    [ . . . ]

    Adopted in Convention on the 2nd day of Feby, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-one and of the independence of Texas the twenty-fifth.

    Nah, slavery didn’t have *anything* to do with it . . .

  24. Bob

    Note to MB: Notice the 17 states acted outside of and each separately from the federal gov. So it was not the issue in the fed gov. At least those with all the money and influence weren’t concerned about it. Linclon needed a scape goat to increase recruit numbers so he sided with and acclaimed ” In all the non-slave-holding States, in violation of that good faith and comity which should exist between entirely distinct nations, the people have formed themselves into a great sectional party, now strong enough in numbers to control the affairs of each of those States, based upon an unnatural feeling of hostility to these Southern States and their beneficent and patriarchal system of African slavery, proclaiming the debasing doctrine of equality of all men, irrespective of race or color– a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of Divine Law. They demand the abolition of negro slavery throughout the confederacy, the recognition of political equality between the white and negro races, and avow their determination to press on their crusade against us, so long as a negro slave remains in these States.” What Texas was saying was that those organizations opposed their position. It was not Linclon’s nor congress’ primary issue.

  25. MB

    Oh, right. All that stuff about the natural place of Africans being slaves and the inanity of the idea of equality was just window dressing.


  26. Bob

    No, all that stuff about hate is just a window dressing for the bottom line, “Let’s all just live in the past and persecute every white southerners for ever and ever,” That is the process that black people seem to demand now. That flag had NOTHING TO DO WITH WHY THIS DISCUSSION TAKES PLACE. THE IDEA BEHIND THE FREAKING DISPLAY HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH WHY THIS DISCUSSION IS TAKING PLACE! It was as wrong to display that as is was wrong to ever have enslaved another human being in the first place. If symbolic gestures like a burnt cross can be made illegal as in the hate crime laws, then that display is as much terrorism as a burnt cross AND IT SHOULD BE ILLEGAL TOO! I guess the laws are biased.

  27. MB

    Equating an art installation with slavery. Impressive. Learn that in Sunday school, Bob?

  28. Bob

    That is not art, it is a careless and insensitive attack on Southern whites in general and it was intentional and malicious. Never confuse that crap with art. If you don’t know how something will affect others, it’s best not to do it in the first place and this fool KNEW EXACTLY how it would affect others so that is why the fool did it in the first place. His motive is wrong and he has shown malcontempt for all white people. Would I pay for an item like that to place somewhere so people could see it? No. Would I pay to go view a piece of crap like that? No. Would I hold accountable a person or organization who openly and maliciously offended me? Yes. I believe the majority of people would do the same. Northerner or Southerner. The guy is a racist, in my opinion, bottom line. He should not accuse others of racism until he himself has searched his own soul and come clean with himself. (Or maybe he just doesn’t want to admit the truth, maybe he WANTS to encite violence as his ultimate goal so that he can continue to live in the 50s and 60s.)

  29. MB

    Bob, your kind of crazy is just too much work. Whack-a-mole is only fun if the mole occasionally stays still for a moment.

  30. CG

    BOB says: ““Let’s all just live in the past and persecute every white southerners for ever and ever,” That is the process that black people seem to demand now.”

    Okay, sure let’s weigh injustices.

    1. Slavery: possibly the worst injustice possible to a human being

    2. Promised reparations which went to shit.

    3. Jim Crows laws for years. It’s not even fair to call blacks second class citizens at this point. Not when you get hung from a tree for insulting a white person and no one goes to jail for it.

    4. Finally, resistance to the civil rights movement. Civil rights, at worst tried to square things up for the current descendents and at best. as some people complain, sometimes even give them a boost. It however can barely address years of wrongs already suffered.

    AND then on the other side, we have people complaining about heritage being abused, which in the very best of interpretations cannot dissociate itself from the slavery issue — no way no how.

    One should be ASHAMED to actually complain that African Americans who have found the flag offensive have asked too much.

  31. jeremy

    the flag repesents heritage not hate a lot of people see the confederate flag and think hate because of the civil war the civil was was not about slavery it was about states rights because the norhterns had slaves too. The south is the greastest place to live and if you got a problem with that they you can head north

  32. Bob

    Poor argument CG;

    You, too, seem to want to live in the past. Let us analize this:

    1. Slavery: possibly the worst injustice possible to a human being = in the past.

    2. Promised reparations which went to shit. I believe that never passed and was never promissed. = past

    3. Jim Crows laws for years. It’s not even fair to call blacks second class citizens at this point. Not when you get hung from a tree for insulting a white person and no one goes to jail for it. = past, I’ve not seen nor heard of a racially motivated linching in the past 20-40 years. Yes that is definitely in the past and so are you if you think it is still going on.

    4. Finally, resistance to the civil rights movement. Civil rights, at worst tried to square things up for the current descendents and at best. as some people complain, sometimes even give them a boost. It however can barely address years of wrongs already suffered. = PAST, I believe you’ve already won equality and the same rights as everyone else, Afirmative Action is a ploy to give blacks an unfair advantage over whites. There is NOTHING fair and equal about Affirmative Action. Umm let me see does that tally up? Umm yes CG is living in the past.

  33. MB

    So, to follow your lead Bob, what Mr. Sims did with the noose and the flag = PAST. So STFU.

    Did I get it right?


    Okay, all you uneducated barely literate troglodytes out there, it’s coming up on your last chance to post on this thread. While I was happy to let you hang yourself (so to speak) with your own words, you’re pretty much repeating yourselves over and over. And who wants to see that? No one, really. So throw out your best arguments. Unless something new or interesting comes up, I’ll be locking this at the end of the day.

  34. Bob

    No, MB, I believe you should STFU because what he did was current, it was a deliberate and current attack and he should be made out to be the fool that he is. He did not do this piece of crap in the civil rights era, he did it in the 21st century. Have a good day MB and thankyou for the stimulating conversations.

  35. Lox

    MB, you seem to have an old fashioned “Southern Bell” mind set. In short, u have a 1-track-mind. Have u ever heared the saying “Herritage not Hate”? Or “Southern Pride, not Prejudice”? Not everyone likes the “Southern Cross” because they dont like black people, some simply like the way it looks, or the other things it stood for. I’m not sure of ur education level, but I’m still in High School and have recently learned about the American Civil War. And slavery was not the real issue behind it all, there were many other POLITICAL ISSUES hidden from the common public. Like eliminating Tariffs, States Rights, increased and improved crop production, and of course the fact that everyone wants to be part of something great and new. so just do me one favor, when u criticize people, make sure u atleast take into consideration that everyone has a right to an opinion without criticism, and that C.S.A. stands for the Confederate States of AMERICA.

    Y’all have a good one ya hear|?

    I’m Lox, American by birth, and Southern by the Grace of God.

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