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	<title>Comments on: Blogger Code of Conduct?  Bugger that.</title>
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	<link>http://blacknell.net/dynamic/2007/04/10/blogger-code-of-conduct-bugger-that/</link>
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	<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 03:45:44 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Blacknell.net &#187; The White House Is Stealing Your Property</title>
		<link>http://blacknell.net/dynamic/2007/04/10/blogger-code-of-conduct-bugger-that/#comment-13044</link>
		<dc:creator>Blacknell.net &#187; The White House Is Stealing Your Property</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Apr 2007 20:43:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blacknell.net/dynamic/2007/04/10/blogger-code-of-conduct-bugger-that/#comment-13044</guid>
		<description>[...] I see that Sen. Leahy must have read my post the other day - he calls a liar a liar.)  You can leave a comment, or trackback from your own site. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I see that Sen. Leahy must have read my post the other day - he calls a liar a liar.)  You can leave a comment, or trackback from your own site. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: MB</title>
		<link>http://blacknell.net/dynamic/2007/04/10/blogger-code-of-conduct-bugger-that/#comment-13023</link>
		<dc:creator>MB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Apr 2007 13:18:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blacknell.net/dynamic/2007/04/10/blogger-code-of-conduct-bugger-that/#comment-13023</guid>
		<description>With the deranged but smart folks of the mid-90s?  Or even Vodkatea crazy?  Sure.    With the Great Unwashed of the present?  No, not really.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With the deranged but smart folks of the mid-90s?  Or even Vodkatea crazy?  Sure.    With the Great Unwashed of the present?  No, not really.</p>
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		<title>By: sasha</title>
		<link>http://blacknell.net/dynamic/2007/04/10/blogger-code-of-conduct-bugger-that/#comment-13000</link>
		<dc:creator>sasha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Apr 2007 01:56:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blacknell.net/dynamic/2007/04/10/blogger-code-of-conduct-bugger-that/#comment-13000</guid>
		<description>I don't know.  Don't you sort of miss the whole wild west aspect of the unmoderated, code-of-conduct free internet experience?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know.  Don&#8217;t you sort of miss the whole wild west aspect of the unmoderated, code-of-conduct free internet experience?</p>
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		<title>By: MB</title>
		<link>http://blacknell.net/dynamic/2007/04/10/blogger-code-of-conduct-bugger-that/#comment-12961</link>
		<dc:creator>MB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Apr 2007 13:45:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blacknell.net/dynamic/2007/04/10/blogger-code-of-conduct-bugger-that/#comment-12961</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the discussion, all.  In following this, I've realized that I understand how some could get limited utility out of a generally agreed upon comment moderation policy.  Something along a CC-license model, where you can pick and choose your elements, and then stick to and point to it.

But that's only a tiny part of what this "code of conduct" mess is about, no? And while I understand the attractiveness of the (feeling of) certainty it provides, I think it would ultimately be just as subjective as sorting it out yourself.  I suspect a conscientious moderator will struggle with some questions just as much with a written policy as she would without one.  

The distinction between forums and blogging comments is an important one, and I wouldn't touch forum moderation if you paid me to.  On the comment moderation side of things, I think a comfort with benevolent dictatorship and thick skin are your only reliable tools.

~

And yes, we can point to the smoldering pile that is USENET as an example of the consequences of any number of things, not the least of which is what happens when there's no practical means of moderation.  USENET was my first real online social experience and great while it lasted (heck, 30 of us flew to New Orleans for a long weekend in 94 to meet each other in person), but when the floodgates opened . . .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the discussion, all.  In following this, I&#8217;ve realized that I understand how some could get limited utility out of a generally agreed upon comment moderation policy.  Something along a CC-license model, where you can pick and choose your elements, and then stick to and point to it.</p>
<p>But that&#8217;s only a tiny part of what this &#8220;code of conduct&#8221; mess is about, no? And while I understand the attractiveness of the (feeling of) certainty it provides, I think it would ultimately be just as subjective as sorting it out yourself.  I suspect a conscientious moderator will struggle with some questions just as much with a written policy as she would without one.  </p>
<p>The distinction between forums and blogging comments is an important one, and I wouldn&#8217;t touch forum moderation if you paid me to.  On the comment moderation side of things, I think a comfort with benevolent dictatorship and thick skin are your only reliable tools.</p>
<p>~</p>
<p>And yes, we can point to the smoldering pile that is USENET as an example of the consequences of any number of things, not the least of which is what happens when there&#8217;s no practical means of moderation.  USENET was my first real online social experience and great while it lasted (heck, 30 of us flew to New Orleans for a long weekend in 94 to meet each other in person), but when the floodgates opened . . .</p>
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		<title>By: Waldo Jaquith</title>
		<link>http://blacknell.net/dynamic/2007/04/10/blogger-code-of-conduct-bugger-that/#comment-12891</link>
		<dc:creator>Waldo Jaquith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Apr 2007 03:56:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blacknell.net/dynamic/2007/04/10/blogger-code-of-conduct-bugger-that/#comment-12891</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Forums are one thing, blogs are another thing entirely. It’s easy to enforce rules on a community where one must register to participate. But with blogs, where anyone can be your guest and anyone can leave a comment whether or not they approve of “The Code”, it’s hard to convince the public that they have to stand by that or at least not put up too much of a fight should you enforce it.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Good point.  I'm reminded of The September that Never Ended, when USENET went to shit after AOL got a newsfeed.  I never tried to moderate a newsgroup, but it clearly would have been fruitless; USENET is functionally nonexistent now.  It's just too open.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Forums are one thing, blogs are another thing entirely. It’s easy to enforce rules on a community where one must register to participate. But with blogs, where anyone can be your guest and anyone can leave a comment whether or not they approve of “The Code”, it’s hard to convince the public that they have to stand by that or at least not put up too much of a fight should you enforce it.</p></blockquote>
<p>Good point.  I&#8217;m reminded of The September that Never Ended, when USENET went to shit after AOL got a newsfeed.  I never tried to moderate a newsgroup, but it clearly would have been fruitless; USENET is functionally nonexistent now.  It&#8217;s just too open.</p>
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		<title>By: Blogger code of conduct? &#171; Vivian J. Paige</title>
		<link>http://blacknell.net/dynamic/2007/04/10/blogger-code-of-conduct-bugger-that/#comment-12889</link>
		<dc:creator>Blogger code of conduct? &#171; Vivian J. Paige</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Apr 2007 03:52:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blacknell.net/dynamic/2007/04/10/blogger-code-of-conduct-bugger-that/#comment-12889</guid>
		<description>[...]  Lots of posts around the blogsphere on this. But the best one I&#8217;ve read so far is over at Blacknell.net: You want to improve the blogosphere? Raise the bar on substance, instead of hiding behind [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...]  Lots of posts around the blogsphere on this. But the best one I&#8217;ve read so far is over at Blacknell.net: You want to improve the blogosphere? Raise the bar on substance, instead of hiding behind [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://blacknell.net/dynamic/2007/04/10/blogger-code-of-conduct-bugger-that/#comment-12846</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Apr 2007 23:57:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blacknell.net/dynamic/2007/04/10/blogger-code-of-conduct-bugger-that/#comment-12846</guid>
		<description>Oh, and because I haven't said it, MB, great post and very true.  Improving the blogosphere comes with improving its content and its participants, not with codes but with actual action.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, and because I haven&#8217;t said it, MB, great post and very true.  Improving the blogosphere comes with improving its content and its participants, not with codes but with actual action.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://blacknell.net/dynamic/2007/04/10/blogger-code-of-conduct-bugger-that/#comment-12845</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Apr 2007 23:56:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blacknell.net/dynamic/2007/04/10/blogger-code-of-conduct-bugger-that/#comment-12845</guid>
		<description>Forums are one thing, blogs are another thing entirely.  It's easy to enforce rules on a community where one must register to participate.  But with blogs, where anyone can be your guest and anyone can leave a comment whether or not they approve of "The Code", it's hard to convince the public that they have to stand by that or at least not put up too much of a fight should you enforce it.

I think that you'll ultimately be hard-pressed to find a code that is developed well enough that it becomes a standard, at least, one that isn't so vague and wideopen that it really has any merit.  The response already has been pretty negative overall, and sure some of it is nitpicking and part of the conversation to help create it, but eventually it will lead to nowhere.

Virginia had this debate almost two years ago and it went nowhere not only  because no one could agree on the terms but also because there were many fears that we would be opening ourselves up to actual legislation of such terms.

I think the spirit of a blogger code is good and comendable (especially given where you're coming from, Waldo), but I think it's utterly unenforceable.  But the conversation on it is good, I think it helps us see who among us really think about this and it's the mere discussion of such a topic that can help us understand one another and help build a sense of civility and community, whether or not the draft becomes anything more than that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Forums are one thing, blogs are another thing entirely.  It&#8217;s easy to enforce rules on a community where one must register to participate.  But with blogs, where anyone can be your guest and anyone can leave a comment whether or not they approve of &#8220;The Code&#8221;, it&#8217;s hard to convince the public that they have to stand by that or at least not put up too much of a fight should you enforce it.</p>
<p>I think that you&#8217;ll ultimately be hard-pressed to find a code that is developed well enough that it becomes a standard, at least, one that isn&#8217;t so vague and wideopen that it really has any merit.  The response already has been pretty negative overall, and sure some of it is nitpicking and part of the conversation to help create it, but eventually it will lead to nowhere.</p>
<p>Virginia had this debate almost two years ago and it went nowhere not only  because no one could agree on the terms but also because there were many fears that we would be opening ourselves up to actual legislation of such terms.</p>
<p>I think the spirit of a blogger code is good and comendable (especially given where you&#8217;re coming from, Waldo), but I think it&#8217;s utterly unenforceable.  But the conversation on it is good, I think it helps us see who among us really think about this and it&#8217;s the mere discussion of such a topic that can help us understand one another and help build a sense of civility and community, whether or not the draft becomes anything more than that.</p>
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		<title>By: Waldo Jaquith</title>
		<link>http://blacknell.net/dynamic/2007/04/10/blogger-code-of-conduct-bugger-that/#comment-12843</link>
		<dc:creator>Waldo Jaquith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Apr 2007 23:13:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blacknell.net/dynamic/2007/04/10/blogger-code-of-conduct-bugger-that/#comment-12843</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;The problem is the peanut gallery has to be in agreement with the code for it to matter to them and too many people will just thumb their nose at the code and still go about doing business on the web as they usually do and still throw fits if things don’t go their way.&lt;/em&gt;

But the fact is that, once the rules are presented (especially if such rules are widely adopted as a standard), it becomes a great deal more difficult for anybody to throw stones at a somebody for enforcing those rules.  That has certainly been my experience in 15 years of running online forums ranging in size from 5-40,000 members.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>The problem is the peanut gallery has to be in agreement with the code for it to matter to them and too many people will just thumb their nose at the code and still go about doing business on the web as they usually do and still throw fits if things don’t go their way.</em></p>
<p>But the fact is that, once the rules are presented (especially if such rules are widely adopted as a standard), it becomes a great deal more difficult for anybody to throw stones at a somebody for enforcing those rules.  That has certainly been my experience in 15 years of running online forums ranging in size from 5-40,000 members.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://blacknell.net/dynamic/2007/04/10/blogger-code-of-conduct-bugger-that/#comment-12842</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Apr 2007 22:34:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blacknell.net/dynamic/2007/04/10/blogger-code-of-conduct-bugger-that/#comment-12842</guid>
		<description>To Waldo - The problem is the peanut gallery has to be in agreement with the code for it to matter to them and too many people will just thumb their nose at the code and still go about doing business on the web as they usually do and still throw fits if things don't go their way.

I think the best way to build civility among blogs is to promote it.  Link to the blogs that matter to you and promote such ideals, promote those that share them, build a community out of civil bloggers who understand and support one another despite differences of opinions and allow an unwritten code to form so that if someone from the peanut gallery does take offense, there's this practical army of legitimate, respectable bloggers to step up and defend the decision.  I think a broad brush just won't catch enough people to really matter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To Waldo - The problem is the peanut gallery has to be in agreement with the code for it to matter to them and too many people will just thumb their nose at the code and still go about doing business on the web as they usually do and still throw fits if things don&#8217;t go their way.</p>
<p>I think the best way to build civility among blogs is to promote it.  Link to the blogs that matter to you and promote such ideals, promote those that share them, build a community out of civil bloggers who understand and support one another despite differences of opinions and allow an unwritten code to form so that if someone from the peanut gallery does take offense, there&#8217;s this practical army of legitimate, respectable bloggers to step up and defend the decision.  I think a broad brush just won&#8217;t catch enough people to really matter.</p>
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