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And the NRA Wonders Why People Think They’re Nuts . . .

Crazy:

The National Rifle Association is pushing legislation to ban adoption agencies from asking potential parents if they have guns and ammunition in the home. NRA lobbyist Marion Hammer said adoption agencies are violating gun-owners' rights by asking about firearms in an adoption form. She said any request about gun ownership from an agency connected with government was tantamount to establishing a gun registry.
Next up, the American Chemical Society objects to questions about poisons, and the National Matchmakers Association stands up for the right of parents to bear books of matches in their toddlers' rooms.

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19 Comments

  1. LFS

    The second paragraph is key. Without reading the actual source and taking what you provided, the issue isn’t about the adoption agency using gun ownership as criterion but about the government tracking gun ownership. Notice the “agency connected with government” and “gun registry” parts.

    Certainly, the NRA wants children to be safe from guns. They spend a good bit of money on the Eddie Eagle program which is all about gun safety for children.

    The NRA’s reason does have precedent, as the federal government has in the past tracked gun ownership even when it was expressly forbidden to do so by law. Hence their desire to cut the data flow off at the source.

  2. Peej

    Damn right the NMA should have our back, otherwise how am I going to teach my kid to light his farts *independently*? I can’t always be around…

    ***

    Not directly related, but the post made me remember a favorite parenting quote–delivered by Keannu Reeves, no less!–when he says in the movie Parenthood, “You need a license to buy a dog, to drive a car…hell, you even need a license to catch a fish. But they’ll let any butt reaming asshole be a father.”

  3. MB

    Okay, LFS, how does a agency responsibly check on the safety of a home they’re going to place a child in? Do tell.

    (And sure, the NRA wants kids to be safe with guns. But as illustrated here, not more than it wants to perpetuate the best fundraising myth they’ve got.)

    ~

    Peej:

    Whoa.

  4. LFS

    MB, the answer is simple. The agency need not be associated with the government. But I’ll turn the table on you. How do you propose to stop government from creating a firearms registry with this data, especially given the fact that it has done so in the past when expressly forbidden to do so by law?

    And I’m not exactly sure how it is an NRA fundraising myth. Some states and localities in the U.S. have created firearms registries, and some of those registries have been used to confiscate registered firearms.

  5. MB

    The agency need not be associated with the government.

    It’s not. Except in the fevered imagination of the NRA and people who don’t RTFA. Is it regulated? Yes. (Are you saying that you’d prefer to return to the good ol’ Virginny days of an unregulated market in humans?)

    But really, the idea that asking about gun possession leads to gun registries leads to confiscation is pretty stupid. Perhaps you’d like to get your local delegate to introduce legislation barring police from asking if you’re armed? You know, because it might create a list?

    ~

    ome states and localities in the U.S. have created firearms registries, and some of those registries have been used to confiscate registered firearms.

    Cite, please.

  6. The American Society of Safety Engineers (ASSE) does not consider homes of firearms owners to be “less-safe” than homes where no legal firearms are kept.

    There simply is no factual basis for an adoption agency to make such an inquiry, although I seriously doubt that many actually do.

    I have inquired about adoption services for clients of mine in at least six of our states, and the question of firearms ownership was never raised.

    Given that ownership of such weapons is a Right, citizens are within certainly permitted to tell such officials, if they are asked about guns, that the information is none of the agency’s business.

    I doubt that we need legislation to bar the question, but citizens should sue any agency who asks or implies that gun ownership is a disqualifying factor in adoption, or foster parenting.

    Gun ownership is a RIGHT, and no permission is required from any governmental agency. We shouldn’t even have “concealed carry permits, since you already have the RIGHT to carry a weapon in any way that you see fit.

  7. CG

    since you already have the RIGHT to carry a weapon in any way that you see fit.

    What about holstered with the gun barrel pointing forward? I thought rights had restraints, like “yelling fire in theater”, for free speech and so forth?

  8. LFS

    CG, I don’t think that is technically brandishing, so yes. It is unreasonable to think that an inanimate object will have a mind of its own and shoot you of its will while in a holster. I should also point out that many of those shoulder rigs used by police detectives have the gun pointed rearward — same type of hazard.

    MB: “But really, the idea that asking about gun possession leads to gun registries leads to confiscation is pretty stupid.” Now, am I gonna be able to hit the way-back machine and find MB rants about the PATRIOT ACT and Bush era policies eroding your freedoms and the library being used to spy on you and your merry band of progressives? Or do you only find civil liberties important when a Republican is POTUS?

  9. MB

    Tyler, did you really consider your proposition, here? We also have the right to free speech, and the freedom of association. I’d think it’s fairly relevant to an adoption agency’s mission to find out of I’m going to be finishing every sentence with “you little asshole” or that I have a pole dancing party in my living room every weekend.

    No question about those issues – or about my ownership of a gun – infringes on those rights. And sue? On the basis of *what*?

    But really, out of my idle curiosity for how far you’re taking this, please answer the question I posed to LFS – do you think you’re within your rights to tell a police officer to stuff it if he’s pulled you over and asks you if you’re armed?

  10. MB

    Hey, Peewee Herman, you didn’t provide a cite. Hop to it, or ride the hobby horse on somewhere else.

    (And you’re quite welcome to hit the Wayback Machine. If you’re at all competent with it and honest, you’re gonna feel stupid not too far into it.)

  11. MB

    CG, I don’t think that is technically brandishing, so yes. It is unreasonable to think that an inanimate object will have a mind of its own and shoot you of its will while in a holster.

    And there we go. LFS doesn’t even agree with the advice given from the Eddie Eagle program* he held up in the first comment. From the NRA’s own site:

    Always keep the gun pointed in a safe direction. Whether you are shooting or simply handling a gun, never point it at yourself or others.

    Next time I’m at Bull Run, LFS, I’ll look for you. You’ll be the asshole swinging his gun around at everyone, right?

    *Not, of course, that the Eddie Eagle program is worth a damn. The core of it is telling kids to stay away from guns. Many (most?) of us who grew up around guns know how well that worked.

  12. Anon E. Mouse

    Considering that firearms ownership is UP, but accidental deaths via firearms, suicides via firearms, and homicides via firearms are all DOWN (http://ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/tables/frmdth.htm), we obviously need MORE firearms!

  13. MB

    Mouse, you were IP-banned for a reason, and that reason hasn’t changed.

  14. LFS

    MB, you ban people! I guess I shouldn’t be amazed since you are so hostile to any opinion that even slightly distorts your world view.

    But getting back to you misreading this discussion… First, I never said I approved of any type of holstering. You made that assumption perhaps because you were too busy typing the word “asshole” to read.

    Now, I didn’t grow up around firearms and do not have years of experience with them. But I do know the difference between a holstered gun and handling one. The truth is, a holstered gun will almost inevitably point at somebody, even those wore on the hip (most hip concealment holsters cant the sidearm, which means it points backward and down at an angle — see “FBI cant”). But since you were raised around firearms and want to chest thump with your reference to shooting at Bull Run, can you tell us what the premise is behind the golden rules of gun safety (why those specific rules)? What type of loads do you use at Bull Run? What type of gun action do you use? What are Bull Run’s barrel restrictions? And what visual inspection does Bull Run require at all times? And by the way MB, the term for the action you attributed to assholes at Bull Run is called “sweeping”.

    Regarding the Eddie Eagle program… you started this post by calling the NRA a bunch of nuts, but you think it is silly for Eddie Eagle to teach children not to play with firearms. I think most people would disagree with you.

    As for citations. The original — Concorde, MA in 1775. The SKS ban in California in the late 90’s. NYC early 90’s on semi-auto rifles and shotguns. New Orleans after Katrina. Greensboro, KS in 2007. It is also likely there were many organized confiscations in the South during the 1800s orchestrated against minority populations.

    As to your question about the police officer. The requirement varies from state to state. In Virginia you are not required to volunteer the information. However, no matter the state it is unwise to be untruthful or avoid answering the question, unwise to blurt out “I have a gun” upon first encounter, and unwise to disobey a police officer if they ask you to temporarily surrender your firearm.

  15. MB

    Just a note to readers: I’ve been running this site (or a version of it) for more than 13 years. In that time, I’ve banned a handful of people. You’ve got to demonstrate some serious bad-faith to get me to do that. Mouse/Fred (same person) qualified.

    ~

    LFS, you’ve got some serious reading comprehension problems. That’s not news, of course, but it does seem to be a common thread that kicks off your tantrums.

    And if you *really* think those are useful citations of gun registration = confiscation in the US, you’re just a moron. What you’ve got amounts to a kneejerk defense of a really stupid NRA position, and have backed it up with absurd distortions (SKS issue was a not a registration = confiscation issue) and silliness (Concorde? *Really?*). The only person who’s going to find you persuasive is someone with as much disregard for the truth is you. And that’s not really the kind of audience I’m aiming for, here. So, you know, have fun. But you’d probably get a better return on your clowning somewhere else.

  16. I thought adoption in the US was illegal. isn’t that why everyone goes abroad to adopt children?

  17. MB

    Don’t be silly, Amit. Imports are always cheaper (plus, no one seems to like the available domestic color palette).

  18. LFS

    So let’s get this straight. The British know of a store of arms and ammo and send troops to get them, but that’s not an attempt at confiscation. The State of California outlaws a firearm that was previously legal, uses their gun registration data to tell owners that if they don’t turn in their firearms they will be felons, but that’s not confiscation. NYC actually goes and gets the guns, but that’s not confiscation. And New Orleans actually lost a lawsuit that said “Yup, that’s confiscation,” but that’s not confiscation.

    MB, every time you end up without arguments you say “You can’t read. You are stupid.” You act like a child.

  19. MB

    No, it’s every time I get tired of dealing with someone who is so incredibly sloppy with his reading/comprehension, I decide I don’t care enough to pursue it.

    Now you go back to your sessions, and I’ll get back to my vacation. If something in the next few days makes me think it’s worth coming back to address your misrepresentations and paranoia, I’ll do so. In the meantime, stock up on ammo. Socialism’s coming, haven’t you heard?

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